All About Decks Part 2

Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to the Weekend, warriors Home Improvement Show built by Bar Lumber. When it comes to big or small projects around the home. Tony and Cory, you've got the know-how and the answers to make your life just a bit easier. Here they are, your weekend Warriors, Tony and Cory. Hey, welcome to the Weekend, warriors Home Improvement Speaker 2 00:00:27 Show, built by Par Lumber. I'm Cory Valdez. And I'm Tony Cookson. Thanks for, uh, checking us out again. This is, uh, we're back in the studio today, and we're gonna be talking about decks again. This is gonna be our dex all about Dex part two. Oh, Dex you said Dex again. And I was wondering if that was a new brand name. A new brand. Dexa again, something Dexa Dexa Again, DEXA again, that sounds like, like a coating. Yeah. Like you buy a coating paint. Yes. You, you know, for your paint your deck with Dex. Again, I'm gonna patent that. That's not gonna, no one's gonna copyright, no one's gonna buy it. Copyright <laugh>. Yes, Dex Again, but because the last time we talked about Dex, which is a huge topic, by the way. Yeah. It was a few weeks ago. Yeah. We, we were only able to cover a portion of it, but we did keep some notes. Speaker 2 00:01:16 We have a really good idea of what we covered and what we didn't. So today we'll be talking about the other stuff. Yeah. We covered basically the framing from the ground up to the framing of all the things you should consider or think about when you're building a new deck. So right now we're gonna be talking about the rest. So from the decking, railing, lighting, you name it. Yeah. So, well, that's good. There's a, there certainly is a lot of it. Um, and there are, there are products that multi, that are made by multiple companies. There's, you know, the old saying there's more than one way to skin a cat more than Yes. I've heard that. Well, there's more than one way to build a deck too <laugh>. There, there are a lot you there. You can, you can wrap it with different types of products and in different ways. Speaker 2 00:02:08 You can, um, you can enclose things in multiple ways. You can mix products or you can make it matchy, matchy. There's a lot of different ways to go about it. We're just gonna talk about one way which hits our way. <laugh>. <laugh>. No, I'm just kidding. We're gonna cover all of it, but we're just gonna hit it quickly. Touch on it and go. And, uh, if something that we say intrigues you, then you can dig in. Maybe we'll help you pinpoint something. Yeah. Feel free to send us a message. Yeah. We can certainly expand on any of the things that you hear during the show today. Yeah. If, uh, if you're listening to this on your podcast software, whatever that may be. Yeah, yeah. Leave us a like, hit us a heart or whatever. A follow. Yeah. Maybe even a review. Like, these guys Speaker 3 00:02:59 Are Speaker 2 00:02:59 Crazy, Speaker 3 00:03:00 Are idiots. Yes. Speaker 2 00:03:02 <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:03:02 I mean, we've heard that before, but, you know, we'd appreciate it if you didn't call us idiots. Yeah. It's, uh, but anyway, so all about decks. Part two, we've built the frame. That was our part one. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we built the under structure. Now we're gonna be putting our decking surface on, but there's a couple things to consider, and I don't recall if we actually covered this in the last episode, but when you are building a frame out of pressure treated lumber, the, the biggest fail point on any deck is the framing down the road. You know, so if you want your deck to last a long time, especially if you're using a composite product, which is very, very common these days, you'll wanna cover that framing with some sort of beautiful tape. There's a lot of manufacturers out there that make really cool products. Speaker 3 00:03:57 We're not gonna go into details on, on them, but if you just get any sort of high quality butyl rubber tape, Trex makes one, I think four to fiber makes one vico. But these, what they are is they, you put 'em on the surface, on the very top of your deck, um, framing, and it prevents water from leaking down into the framing itself. And if you know anything about deck failures, and I've talked to a lot of contractors about this over the years, what happens is pressure treated lumber Yes. Is pressure treated. It resists rot. But over time it still rots that treatment does not get to the very core of all of the wood. Speaker 2 00:04:47 Not even really close to the Speaker 3 00:04:48 Core. No. So, and when you have framing that goes through expansion and contraction cycles, winters, summers, you know, it heats up and gets wet. It, you know, all that stuff snow, it, it moves around. Right. It expands. And contracts and all of the fasteners that are used to put that deck together, the framing together, eventually start wearing out, they start getting loose, more water gets into the surface, and eventually your deck framing will rot. Yeah. Even using pressure treated lumber. And it might take a long time. And it really, it depends on how well the deck was put together. If it was put together shabby, and they weren't using end cut solution on your pressure treated lumber, and, you know, the, the framing doesn't fit together tight. That's a sure sign that it wasn't put together Well. Right. It's gonna not last as long as if it was, but one of the things you can do to really, really help is to use that tape. Speaker 2 00:05:49 Yeah. It, uh, it definitely has a waterproof surface that it adds to the top of your joist, but it also waterproofs around the, the fastener as you drive the fastener through the decking and into the joist. And it will extend the life of your, the framing of your deck for years. Absolutely. And the framing of your deck, while you can't see it, it is the thing that keeps you from falling down and landing on your head <laugh>, um, underneath a, a pile of crumbling wood, because the frame is the most important thing. It is the foundation of your deck. Speaker 3 00:06:24 And, you know, the, the product itself, most tapes, most of these joist tapes, you can buy a 75 or a hundred foot roll for 50, $60. Right. So when you're doing your entire deck, it might cost you Speaker 2 00:06:38 A few hundred dollars. Speaker 3 00:06:39 Yeah. Two, 300 bucks. Yep. But what's two, $300 adding many, many years Right. To the life of your deck? Speaker 2 00:06:47 No question. This is not a product that's been on the market for a long, long time. You might be thinking, ah, I don't know. I've never heard of such a thing. Yeah. It's pretty new, really. I mean, I've been in the last 10 years, and so traditionally it's not something that would have been used, but believe me, it is being used now and Dex will be safer longer, and it's worth it for the extra hundreds of dollars. Speaker 3 00:07:10 Yes, sir. Uh, Speaker 2 00:07:11 To keep your, to make your deck last longer. Speaker 3 00:07:13 But there's also that misconception, like we talked about earlier, there's a misconception out there that pressure treated lumber lasts forever. Speaker 2 00:07:20 No. Yeah, it does not. Speaker 3 00:07:21 You've, I've heard that many times. No, no. It's pressure treated. You know, I'm gonna stick it in the ground and it's gonna last forever. That's just not the case. Speaker 2 00:07:27 It's not the case. So as a matter of fact, it has a, it has a warranty and the warranty is not forever <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:07:34 Yeah. Think it's only like 10 years or 15 years Speaker 2 00:07:36 Or so. Yeah. It's, um, yeah. Corey and I have been in the building material supply industry for a long time, and we are here to tell you that not only have we seen pressure treated material rot, we've sold material that was used to build a fence and then provided the material again, again, when that material rotted, rotted and fell apart down. Now it was 25 years later, but that's how long we've been doing this. Right. You know what I'm saying? And, uh, and it does happen, uh, fence posts, for example, fence posts while treated and while under warranty will eventually rot. Yeah. Uh, especially if, here's an example. You have a fence post and rails and fence, um, boards, but the top of the fence post is exposed. The end grain, the top of the fence post is exposed to the weather and it rains and water sits there, and that grain opens up like wood checks over time. The sun and the rain and the sun and the rain and the sun and the rain. And it causes it to open up. And then it gets in there deeper. And next thing you know, that thing is rotten bam. Uh, same thing goes at the bottom where it's in the concrete pouring. Concrete, concrete is porous. It holds water that's holding water up against the wood all the time. That, and that wood will rot there. So, um, yeah. It's, it doesn't last forever. So a little contrary to popular belief. Speaker 3 00:09:00 So basically a little bit of protection goes a long way. Speaker 2 00:09:05 Absolutely. Absolutely. Speaker 3 00:09:06 Uh, the next one on our list is things to consider is waterproofing on top of just waterproofing the joists itself. Right. You can waterproof the joists and the area underneath the deck if you've got a second story deck. Or even if you have a deck that's say, five, six feet off the ground, you can add, there's different products on the market. Trex rain escapes is a fantastic one that goes on top of the framing and under the decking, and it allows water to shed away. It goes down through the deck surface, and then it funnels away from the deck framing. And underneath it's like a waterproofing, uh, it's not a membrane. It's like these troughs that go over the joists. It's Speaker 2 00:09:49 A water management system. Yes. And it traps all of the water that lands on the surface of the deck and it puts it into a gutter and a downspout and sends it away. Right. So that the underneath side of your deck remains dry. So there, there's two big things to know. It manages the water that doesn't keep the deck, it doesn't keep the top of the deck dry <laugh>. And the top of the deck gets wet, it gets rained on and it's wet, but the water goes through the deck and down into the water management system underneath the deck manages the water without allowing it to get on the surface that is below the deck. So Right. So keeps the below deck surface clean and dry while managing the water. So Speaker 3 00:10:33 It gives you a nice storage. Yeah. Tons of nice storage under there. Especially if you've, you're off the ground a little bit and you've got furniture, lawn furniture, yard games, barbecues, and you don't want that stuff to get ruined over the wintertime. You can roll it under the deck. It's a perfect application for excellent storage. Speaker 2 00:10:51 Yeah. If that's the thing that you're, that you're looking for. Yeah. Or living space. But oftentimes space, you have a second story deck and a first story deck or a porch that's underneath that upper deck, and you want to spend as much time there as you do upstairs. Um, so yeah, it, it's a great way to do it. There's, there's a couple of different products out there. There's even a way, Corey to, to do it without buying into another product. You know, you can buy your own metal or fiberglass or plastic corrugated sheeting and you could install it yourself with a gutter and downspouts. It's a lot more work that way because you don't have the pieces, you know, already set aside for you with a plan and all the stuff, but it can be done. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:11:37 Now, I've heard this question before, because Trex rain escapes again. You have to install it before you put your, your decking down. It goes under the decking, over the framing. So if you've already got a deck in place, you've built it, and you then you wanna waterproof it. You can't really use Trex raines escapees without removing the entire surface of the deck Speaker 2 00:11:59 If you're replacing the surface of your deck. Yeah, Speaker 3 00:12:01 You could, Speaker 2 00:12:02 You could, if you don't mind taking it up and putting it back down, you could, I mean, it certainly is not. It's possible. Yeah. It's not any more work than, uh, you know, replacing your deck entirely. Sure. So you could certainly remove the surface of your deck and put it back down, but you probably won't. Speaker 3 00:12:17 TimberTech makes a product, though, called dry space. Correct. TimberTech dry space goes under the framing. So it does not waterproof the framings itself because it nails on to the bottom of the framing. So water goes through it, collects on these trays, trays, and then shuttles the water down, just like dry space down to a gutter and then down to a downspout and then out. Right. So, but however, it is a nice looking product. It adds a very finished look to the underside of the deck. And again, you can install it after the fact. Speaker 2 00:12:55 Yes, you can. Yeah. It's a good, it's a good option. Um, they're both, um, they're, they're both, you know, it's, I wouldn't say it's an inexpensive process and I wouldn't say it's a simple process, but it is available and it does result in a very nice, um, dry space underneath your deck. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:13:17 A hundred percent. It's worth looking into. Uh, next one, our list is to talk about decking. Something to consider when you're thinking about the decking, there are a hundred or more different products you can choose from. Right. Composite decking alone there, I, I heard somewhere there's like, well over 150 different composite manufacturers, composite decking manufacturers. Wow. Tons. I mean, the biggest ones out there are gonna be tracks, timber, TimberTech. Those are your two top largest manufacturers of decking. Traxx makes recycled material. Theirs uses 99% recycled material. TimberTech uses 100% virgin plastic. Actually no, I take that back. TimberTech started using recycled material. Did Speaker 2 00:14:06 They? Is that true? Speaker 3 00:14:07 That is true in certain aspects. And then the cover in the, the, uh, Speaker 2 00:14:13 Okay. The wrap. The Speaker 3 00:14:14 Wrap, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that capped composite that they put over the top. That's actually a hundred percent virgin material. But e either way you look at it, there are products that are designed to last a very long time, and there's lots of different colors, lots of different profiles. Timber tech makes 'em five quarter, which is a one inch thick product, five quarter by four, five quarter by six five, quarter by eight even. Yeah. So you can really change the look of your deck based on what you want. You know, if, if you want to match the inside of your house, they've even got 'em that look like hardwood floors. It's pretty Speaker 2 00:14:53 Incredible. It really is. And TimberTech, uh, with Azec makes a completely P V C product. All Speaker 3 00:15:01 Cellular P V C, all Speaker 2 00:15:03 Polyvinyl chloride. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:15:05 It's amazing product. Speaker 2 00:15:06 There's no wood flower in it. It's not a composite, it's just all P V C. And it is extremely low maintenance. Um, scratch resistant, stain resistant. And it is, it is an amazing product Speaker 3 00:15:18 Installation wise. It's very light. It's not heavy at all. It's about half the weight of a standard composite deck board if you've ever installed a composite deck or handled composite decking. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's heavy. It's very heavy. Speaker 2 00:15:34 It really is. Speaker 3 00:15:35 Timber tech AEC is so light in comparison. One person can carry a 20 footer no problem. Uh, but fastening it down is a lot easier. There's a lot of pros pluses to it. Yeah. There's a lot of pros to it. The only probably negative is that it is a bit more expensive, but given the right application, P V C is amazing. Speaker 2 00:15:57 Yep. I agree with that. If I were, if I were going that direction for a deck of my own, um, I would choose P V C over composite likely. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:16:09 Now, the other options out there are the good old classic cedar or redwood. Those are very popular deckings still. Uh, I would say that at, they're not as popular as they were 15 years ago. Sure. The rise of composite decking also had a rise of competition, which drove a lot of the prices down. And honestly, today, you can buy a composite deck cheaper than you can buy cedar. No joke. So it's something to consider if you're going out and you really, really, really, really love the look of cedar. And that's just what you want. Totally. I get it. So we'll talk about it. Speaker 2 00:16:48 Yeah. But it is notable also that if you are buying composite, while it might be less expensive per foot, um, than Cedar buy a little bit, you do have to have your joists on 16 inch centers and not 24 inch centers. So you will be buying more brackets, more joist, more fasteners, and more probably some more, um, foundation peer blocks or concrete. And it will be more work to build the frame. So, you know, I think that there's a place in there where they find themselves on a, on an even playing field. Um, Cedar is absolutely as beautiful as it's ever been, and it's a great option for a deck. Speaker 3 00:17:32 Yeah. I've seen this many times. You mentioned it. I've had customers come in, they're tearing off a cedar deck and they wanna put composite down. Right. But most cedar decks that were built in the past were 24 on center, 24 inches on center, the joists. And like you said, composite just doesn't span that far. So you're having to add Speaker 2 00:17:54 A joist, Speaker 3 00:17:54 A joist in every bay. Right. So now you're 12 inches on center. So yeah, I get what you're saying. There's, there's a bit more involved in installing composite decking. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:18:04 There's a little more, a little more cost and there, but, um, you know, something you didn't mention is bamboo. Bamboo came on really strong bamboo, bamboo, I don't know, 10 years ago maybe. Um, bamboo is definitely, uh, a force out there. They, they make, uh, an unbelievable product and it's gorgeous. And one of them ex for example, is sold by, uh, DRO Dasso. Dasso X T R. Yeah. That is a, that is a phenomenal looking and performing product. I've sold several daod decks. Speaker 3 00:18:41 Yeah. It's, uh, on the scale of price, it's probably a little bit more the composite, but if you want that hardwood look, and I will say, bam, the bamboo dasso X T R isn't just straight bamboo, it's a bamboo composite. They actually mix it with the same sort of resins that they do with composite decking. So it is kind of a, still a composite, but it has, instead of maple or oak wood flour, they use bamboo strips and then they compress it into this machine. Yeah. And it comes out. But it's like you said, it is gorgeous. Yeah. It looks like interior flooring. It's Speaker 2 00:19:19 Got a deep, dark mocha color, real really dark brown rich and, and it's end matched, which makes it awesome. So all the pieces are six foot long and, and it's end matched. So what that means Speaker 3 00:19:32 Is it's, Speaker 2 00:19:33 It's a great looking floor. Speaker 3 00:19:34 It's tongue and grooved on the sides and on the ends. So when you, when you put it together, you don't have to land on a joist. Those tongue and grooves fit together and they're extremely strong. And Speaker 2 00:19:47 Everywhere where the boards come together, there is a bevel. So you get this bevel all the way around, which is just a really good look compartment, compartmentalizes your decking and makes it look, um, rich. I really like it. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:20:02 Uh, the other options, like always hardwoods, you know, there's a lot of different hardwoods to consider. Red Bilal, uh, epay Epay, Speaker 2 00:20:11 Tiger wood. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:20:12 Tiger Wood. There's a lot more even coming onto the market. But one thing to consider there is, were they ma Mahogany? They were they sustainably harvested? Speaker 2 00:20:22 My deck is made of Rich, Speaker 3 00:20:24 Rich mahogany. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. You have a tiger wood deck, don't you? I do actually. Yeah. Yeah. On your front porch. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, a lot of those deckings, they come in from overseas, so you don't really know where those things come from. And I don't know, I'm not a gigantic fan. Speaker 2 00:20:42 Yeah. I, you know, um, it's, yep. It's, it's not for everyone. Um, and here's the thing. Hardwood decks, a a lot of them, while they are very dense and they don't really like splinter, like we would see cedar or fur do, they will break. They will, chunks of them will just chip right off. Wow. Yeah. I was, uh, I was installing it and hit the corner of a piece that I was installing with a hammer and broke off the whole corner of it. Wow. Speaker 3 00:21:15 It's just Speaker 2 00:21:15 Brittles. Yeah. Snapped off like rock. Crazy. Uh, it's very, very dense. It's not, it's not like it can't take damage. It can just differently. And, um, but it is, it's not for everybody. I do really like it, it doesn't weather the same as some of the other, you know, soft woods. But, um, yeah. Like I say, it's not for everybody. Well, and Speaker 3 00:21:37 Some of the things too, Speaker 2 00:21:37 It is as expensive as the most expensive composite or, or, or P V C decking. Speaker 3 00:21:43 Yeah. Epay these days is probably the most expensive decking on the market by far. Yeah. At least in our area when we're importing it in. 'cause none of it's from the US it's all imported. So it comes in on containers and the latest shipments have come in and they are, I mean, $10 a foot. Speaker 2 00:22:03 Expensive. Yeah. Expensive. Speaker 3 00:22:04 So if you really want that look, I say go for it. But just keep that in mind. You know, there's other things to consider too. We'll get into a little bit later when it comes into maintenance. But, um, anyway, the last decking surface, there's actually two Yeah. That I wanted to talk about is the other options are solid surface. You know, putting a membrane down, a waterproof membrane that Speaker 2 00:22:25 You paint on. Yeah. You roll on. Speaker 3 00:22:27 Well there's that and there's also Yeah. Roll on like sheets. They make, you know, like a waterproof membrane that you roll on. Oh yeah. And then you apply, Speaker 2 00:22:37 I remember years ago, 30 years ago, we sold a product called Span Tex. Span Tex was very, very popular. It was a, it was a roll on product that you would add texture to, you would add like sand or, or you know, something to it to give it a texture for ramps and stairs and those types of things. Yeah. And then eventually people started coating their entire deck with it, because it's better than paint. Um, but, um, covers up all of the, you know, blemishes and, and owies and things like that. Well, Speaker 3 00:23:09 Now there's a product that we sell called Geico. Right. There's Geico deck protector, there's Geico, waterproof deck membrane. It's a whole process though. You know, you have to use pressure treated plywood. You have to use a primer seam tape. Seam tape. And you have to really make sure that surface is flat. You need your framing to be very, very solid. 'cause you don't want any flex in it. Speaker 2 00:23:32 'cause it'll Yeah. It'll tear that. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:23:34 Yeah. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't use it also in any really, in a situation where you're, how you need it to be 100% waterproof. I've seen people use it on areas of a house that are waterproof with living space underneath. So, I mean, that's Speaker 2 00:23:51 Danger Speaker 3 00:23:52 That, well, I don't know about danger as long as it's applied correctly. Sure. But yeah, you, it's, it does need to be applied super carefully. Yeah. You gotta have somebody that knows what they're doing, install it. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:24:04 And if you do it, and it's a very high traffic area, like, you know, commercial space, for example. Yeah. I mean, I would be, I would be concerned about my ability to put it down, um, so perfectly that it would, that it would last for a long time in a high traffic area. Speaker 3 00:24:21 In a lot of those situations, I'll see roll on membrane, you know, where it's like a vinyl product that, or, or some sort of thick product that's rolled on as a, as like a V roll. Right. A vinyl sheet Speaker 2 00:24:38 Sheeting, like an ice and water shield. Yeah, yeah. Like Speaker 3 00:24:40 A sheeting, but it's, but it's torched down kind of. Yeah. And I've seen that put down. And then sleepers, so they put down pressure treated strips and then put decking over that. Mm. So you're, the waterproof surface is waterproof, but you're not actually walking on it. You're walking on a deck. Speaker 2 00:24:58 I see. Interesting, interesting Speaker 3 00:25:00 Tracks or something you can put down over that. Right. So I've seen, I've actually sold a lot of decks like that in applications where that waterproof flat surface is literally the roof to something underneath, like living space. Sure. Okay. Interior living space. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in modern architecture, that's very common. So I'll see that a lot where you'll have like a flat roof deck on the top of your garage, but you don't wanna walk on it all the time because you need that surface to stay waterproof. Right, Speaker 2 00:25:31 Right. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:25:33 So it's something to consider. Speaker 2 00:25:35 I think the last one here is you've got written paint grade, and you're talking about really any species of wood or product that you choose that will take a paint. Sure. Speaker 3 00:25:48 Absolutely. I <laugh>, I get this question all the time. People want to come in, they want to build the cheapest possible deck for whatever reason. Sure. It's a rental. Or they're selling the house or you know, they're, they want to put something out on their back 40 for a sport court or whatever, and they're like, I don't care what it is, I'm gonna paint it. Well, there's things to consider. Yes. When you're painting a deck. Yes. You don't wanna use anything that has any sort of moisture in it. Right. It's gotta be kiln dried. That means Speaker 2 00:26:20 Fur, cedar, hemlock, all of that. Anything that is green. And when I say green, I don't mean green in color. Green meaning it has not been dried. Right. If it hasn't been through the drying process, it's going to be a problem. Speaker 3 00:26:32 And not necessarily air dried. I mean, you want it to be kiln dried. Sure. So all of those pores have been sealed. You put a nice coat of primer and paint on it and it's going to stay. They make special paint specifically for walking surfaces. They call it like porch and floor paint. So you definitely want to use one of those. You don't wanna just use any standard exterior paint. It doesn't have the abrasion resistance. It will wear off. So if you use the right paint on the right surface, you just wanna make sure you're choosing a product that is kiln dried. So Speaker 2 00:27:07 Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's not a really good way to go. Speaker 3 00:27:11 I don't think so either. 'cause this is the thing, you know, let's, let's get into real quick, let's talk about maintenance Yeah. Speaker 2 00:27:16 Going forward, Speaker 3 00:27:17 Because we covered a lot of products, but there's a lot of things to consider around maintenance that would push you in one way or another. For instance, you know, we have, me and my family, were, we own, we're part owners in a, in a beach house and it's right on the ocean. The deck that has been there on the house before we were involved was there for probably 35 years. But it was cedar and it was painted and they had to paint it every couple of years. I mean, just think about the amount of paint that you had to buy. It was a pretty large deck surface as well. Probably 800 square feet. So you're buying 2, 3, 4 gallons of paint probably every two to three years. And then think about the maintenance, think about the work you need to spend out there masking, rolling brushing. Do you wanna go to the beach? Speaker 2 00:28:18 That's only half the work. I know before you paint it, you have to go through and scrape or strip sand or sand. I mean, there's all those places where the paint is peeling back, where you can't just paint over that. You have to fix that. I mean, there's a ton of maintenance that has to be done to a, a deck that's been painted for a year. You can't just roll over it with paint and call it good. Speaker 3 00:28:43 Absolutely. You're Speaker 2 00:28:43 Right. And eventually, eventually it's gonna be peeling in places and you're gonna have to peel that all back, all that loose paint that's coming off and sand it down, and then probably prime it before you paint it Right. The next time. And then the next time and then the next time. Speaker 3 00:28:59 So in your vacation property, do you really want to spend your Speaker 2 00:29:04 Vacation, Speaker 3 00:29:04 Half of your vacation days at the beach? No. Paint stripping and painting a deck surface? No. Speaker 2 00:29:10 I'm here to tell you now. That's not what you want. Speaker 3 00:29:13 A hundred percent. Speaker 2 00:29:14 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:29:15 So we actually decided to go with composite. We went with A A P V C decking at the coast because it's gonna last Speaker 2 00:29:24 Super low maintenance Speaker 3 00:29:24 Literally forever. Right. Probably for as long as we'll ever own that property. Yeah. But then you think about other products like cedar, Cedar's a great product for the beach. It really is. But you still have to maintain it. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:29:38 It has to be, it has to be sealed, stained and sealed. Every, well, probably every well at the beach, every year, Speaker 3 00:29:45 Probably every year. Places every couple years at the Speaker 2 00:29:47 Most. In other places. Maybe every two years. Speaker 3 00:29:49 That's the thing. If you have cedar, if you just let it go, it'll turn silver. And then once it turns silver, it will start the decaying process. Right. Cedar does decay. It just decays slower than other unnatural, you know, natural rot resistant products like Douglas Fir or Hemlock. Yeah. So, Speaker 2 00:30:14 And the longer you keep, uh, the longer you keep waterproofing it or you know, water, putting water resistant products on it, the longer it will last before it decays. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:30:28 But it's maintenance. Speaker 2 00:30:29 But it's maintenance. Speaker 3 00:30:30 This is the thing is if you put it on your house, you just have to remember that a, I see a lot of this trend in modern homes to put hardwood or put cedar on sections of houses. Oh man, you've seen this, right? Oh man. Of course. It's very, very, very popular. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:30:46 It looks really good for like, Speaker 3 00:30:47 For Speaker 2 00:30:48 The first Speaker 3 00:30:48 A minute, couple years. Yeah. And then if you don't maintain it, which means getting out there with an oil-based stain every two to three years, at least it's, it turns silver. Right. And it looks like it's, yeah. Speaker 2 00:31:04 And it doesn't just turn silver. I mean when it does that, it cups and it checks and it twists and it splits and it starts to look like an outhouse. <laugh>, you might as well just go out there and cut a, you know, a half moon, a half moon in it and say, this is my outhouse on my house. Speaker 3 00:31:25 Yeah. I don't know. There, there's a lot of products out there now for that application and we're not getting into that, but Right. That's what we're talking about though. If you choose cedar for your deck surface, know Speaker 2 00:31:36 The, know what's, what you're signing up for. Speaker 3 00:31:38 Stripping, cleaning, regular cleaning, you don't want things to stay on the deck like leaves. They will stain it and it's very difficult. You can't pressure wash it. If you have cedar, you definitely don't wanna pressure wash it. 'cause it will make it furry. And you can't fix that without sanding it off completely. Yeah. So anyway, something to consider. Other products like bamboo, we talked about hardwood, same situation, maintenance, they, you don't necessarily have to stain them, but if you, if you don't mind that gray look, that silvered outlook, if you want it to stay brown or red or whatever color you choose, that chocolatey brown, you do have to maintain it. Speaker 2 00:32:19 Yeah. You have to use brightener and you have to stain it. And you know, it will start to change eventually, no matter how hard you try. But you just keep getting a darker stain and a darker stain and a darker stain until eventually, um, you're, you know, you're staining it so dark that you can't see the Yeah. The silver. Speaker 3 00:32:40 So it's something to consider the long-term maintenance. You know, with wood, you even have other things like splitting, rotting, broken screws. I mean, on the deck that we had at the beach, the amount of deck boards that were completely rotted through screw heads that were just broken off, you have to maintain those if you want it to last obviously longer. So anyway, you put that kind of money into a deck and then just think about the maintenance. A good, you know, good gallon of stain is what? 50 bucks? Speaker 2 00:33:16 Oh yeah. Well, yeah. 50 bucks, 48, Speaker 3 00:33:19 $50. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, think about how many gallons of stain you're gonna need every few years. And the amount of work, the hours that you're gonna put into it is, is it two Saturdays? Is it, you know, is it three? How does that cut into the amount of time you're enjoying it? Yeah. I have that conversation a lot with customers and nine times outta 10 they think it through and go, yeah, I don't Speaker 2 00:33:40 Wanna do that. Yeah, I don't wanna do that. Yeah. You know, there are a lot of different kinds of fasteners also, Corey, that are used to put these different kinds of deckings down. Um, you can have a blind fastened system made by so many different companies. One of them is Trex, t Trex hideaway fasteners. Speaker 3 00:34:02 Yeah. You know, if you choose composite, a lot of the composite decking comes with a groove on the side of the deck board. They also have a square edge. So if you choose to use surface mounted screws, you can screw through the surface. There's other products like Cortex. Fasten master makes a great product called Cortex that you screw down through the surface and then they come with these little matched plugs made out of the decking that you just pound into the hole. It leaves a nice disappears, it completely disappears. Speaker 2 00:34:32 It's gone. Uh, it's really good. It's, it's more work, but it's a, it's a beautiful finish. Speaker 3 00:34:38 Well, you have to consider, even with composite decking, if you have surface screws, anytime you're putting a hole in that cap composite, you're leaving an opening, you're leaving space for moisture or dirt or things to get in. Right. So the more you have of those, the more you need to maintain it. So if you are surface screwing down a deck, you just have to keep in mind that you just want to make, keep that clean. You have to pressure wash it once a year or scrub it with a, you know, stiff bristle brush Yeah. And hose it off. Yeah. So the, the hidden fasteners, in my opinion, are the way to go. Speaker 2 00:35:19 Yeah. And you are doing, um, you're doing a lot of this on your knees, right? Speaker 3 00:35:25 Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, you're down definitely hurting your, your back, hurting your knees. Speaker 2 00:35:30 There is a, there is a blind fastened product that you can install with a screw gun and an extension from the standing position. I'm remembering this, was it Pam? Speaker 3 00:35:48 Pam, pam Fast Pam. Yeah. Pam Fast has one. Senco dur spin has one where you use coed screws to screw down a deck. Now fasten master makes one that installs their clips. Speaker 2 00:36:04 Right? Their clips. They Speaker 3 00:36:05 Have the stainless steel hidden fastener clips for installing composite decking. I would say something like that, if you're gonna step into that world, that would be for a professional deck builder. If you're installing many decks, many, many thousands and thousands of fasteners, it might be worth looking into. If you're a one-time D iyer, it's probably not in the, I wouldn't do it. I I would not do it if you had the money <laugh>. But it's not cheap. You're gonna buy the system, it's, you're into it. Right. So it's kind of an investment. Speaker 2 00:36:42 Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you are, if you have decided that you're gonna build a wood deck, let's call that, um, elite decking or cedar decking or something like that, and you wanted to screw it off and you didn't want to do it from your knees for kind 175 bucks, probably you could get a, a drill and an extension and you could buy collated screws that you would be able to put in from a standing position. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that doesn't have to be a major investment. Um, but if you're getting into the fasten master product where you're, where you're putting in blind fasteners, uh, you know, I guess it can be a little bit more. Speaker 3 00:37:21 Yeah. It's just something to consider. Yeah. It's a great system. Put it that way. Uh, we talk about maintenance, the other things to consider on your deck are fascia in risers. Now we talk about fascia. That's the piece of trim that goes around the exterior of your deck. So you don't look up and see the pressure treated lumber. There's lots of ways to do that. You can use, uh, AEC makes a great product. That's p v cellular. P v C, it's white or paintable, you can put, uh, composite t Trex makes a fascia, TimberTech makes a fascia. Lots of other different things. There's also the idea of using cedar. You can put cedar up there if you want that look, or even primed cedar and paint it. You can put wood up and paint it like, like, just like on your house probably. Speaker 2 00:38:07 Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 3 00:38:08 Lots of different options to consider. Speaker 2 00:38:10 There is, and, and if, if you are putting up the fascia, there is an opportunity for you to hold the decking back to the edge of the framing and then wrap the ends of the deck boards with your fascia by holding it up to cover. That is, um, that is a problematic way to go about it, because if you're holding the fascia up and it's covering the end of the deck boards, then you have crevices in there where things like to, to gather, um, a maybe a better option is to hang your deck boards over, let's call it an inch or an inch and a half or two inches, and then tuck the fascia up underneath the decking and it gives you a good reveal. The only thing that is a challenge there is you need to make sure that your deck boards are cut evenly and cleanly and not looking, you know, ragged and, and, uh, yeah, Speaker 3 00:39:06 Crooked, crooked Speaker 2 00:39:08 <laugh>. Yeah. Jagged ragged and j jagged, Speaker 3 00:39:10 Jagged ragged, jagged. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. No, that's a, that's a good point. I've installed a few decks in my day and probably the biggest thing is to make sure that your framing is square. So when you're installing a deck, if the framing's not square deck boards, you're putting 'em in straight. Then by the time you get to the very end one, you realize that the deck is out a half an inch. Yeah. And you're trying to cheat it and it looks crooked. So starting with a nice square surface or frame is key in that regard. <laugh>. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:39:45 Uh, Speaker 3 00:39:46 Last one on the list is to talk about the enclosure. Lot of deck people like to have, like if it's a low to the ground, they like to cover it up, they wanna wrap all the sides and make it so that you can't see under the deck. Right. Maybe you have animals and you don't want your dog grabbing stuff and running outta the deck and you know, hiding it or digging holes. Right. There's lots of ways to get around that, but there is some things to consider, especially with composite decks. If you have a deck really low to the ground and you completely cut and wrap all the surfaces with like a solid siding or, you know, something like that. If you don't have enough airflow under the deck, that deck surface, if you're installing composite, has a high potential of warping and cupping and what do they call that when it pops? You get the screw pops and it starts coming apart. That's because what happens is Speaker 2 00:40:44 Get a bad case of the screw pops. The screw pops. Nobody wants that. Speaker 3 00:40:49 Yeah. Because what happens is during the day, the sun bakes the surface of the deck, the air underneath the deck gets, Speaker 2 00:40:56 Becomes super heated, Speaker 3 00:40:57 Super heated, and then at night the sun goes down, cools off. So then you have that change in temperature, that hot air under the deck needs to escape. And the bottom sides of the deck are cool. The top sides are, are hot. And that difference of temperature, bam, starts to really warp the deck surface. Yeah. I've seen it, it many times over the years. It Speaker 2 00:41:22 Confuses it. The deck doesn't know what to do. <laugh>, it becomes confused. Speaker 3 00:41:27 Confused. Speaker 2 00:41:28 It becomes angry <laugh>. And you don't like decking when it's angry. All Speaker 3 00:41:31 That air's gotta get out. Speaker 2 00:41:33 Yes. It's not a good situation. So you have to leave it open around, you have to, there's a minimum amount of square inches that needs to be open. It's not all, it doesn't have to all be open and you can enclose some of it, or you can enclose it with, um, with vented material that is, uh, you know, mostly solid mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but you have to have a s a minimum amount of square inches or cubic inches or something like that of, of open space. And that's, you can find all that in the, um, installation guide of the product that you choose to install there. Whether it's Timber Tech or Rex. Um, they have installation instructions in their guide and or, or on their website. And just check that out and make sure that you leave the proper amount of underneath of your deck, uh, open to the Speaker 3 00:42:26 Machine. Yeah. Most of the manufacturers say write in their literature how much, and usually it's three sides. You really need all three sides to be open. So you would want to use something like if you really needed to close it off, I would use something like lattice. Lattice has enough airflow through it to not be a problem, but would also stop your animals and whatnot from climbing under the earth if you just didn't wanna see it. Right. It was just really ugly and you said, I don't wanna see it. Lattice is a good choice there. Yeah. Other products probably not as big of a worry. So something to consider. Anyways, let's jump down to handrail. Yeah. You've put the deck surface down. Now you want, you wanna put hand railing, especially if it's over 30, 30 inches, 28 0, 28 inches Speaker 2 00:43:14 In, in our jurisdiction here. Speaker 3 00:43:15 Yeah, you wanna check with your jurisdiction, but here it's 28 inches. Anything over 28 inches to the top of the deck surface requires a handrail. I mean, that's probably pushing it. I mean, if it was two feet off the ground and Nan fell off the edge of the deck, probably gonna get hurt. Yeah. So it's up to you. But yeah, something to consider handrail, especially when designing a deck. When you're designing a deck and you have the opportunity to step it down at the stairs or say out of your back door, you know, if you want it up, just consider handrail's expensive. You know, you're gonna pay anywhere between 50 and $150 per linear foot to put railing on your deck. So if you've got a hundred linear feet of exterior deck rail, you know, it's 10 grand. Speaker 2 00:44:06 I feel like, feel like, I feel like if you build a deck, a 10 by 10 deck and that deck is going to cost you $1,000, then your handrail is gonna cost you $2,000. Just Speaker 3 00:44:17 About. Yeah. Like, Speaker 2 00:44:18 I believe the handrail to be twice the price of the actual deck materials. Speaker 3 00:44:23 That's pretty accurate. A lot of people come in and they're shellshocked, they're sticker shocked by railing, but it's a lot. Right. I mean, you're putting a lot of money into the product itself, so depending on which one you choose. Yeah. The, the price goes up, especially if you want cable. Yeah. Cable railing's expensive. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:44:44 Absolutely. It is. There is some crazy expensive stuff out there. Now. You can build a less expensive handrail out of more modest materials, for example, like wood. Yeah. You can build a handrail out of wood as a weakened, as a weakened warrior, I would say that's in your scope. It's very important to know that, that a handrail is expected to hold 500 pounds of weight. So if lateral Speaker 3 00:45:11 Force. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:45:12 Right. So if I were to fall against the handrail, it, it would be expected to hold me. I'm a big dude. It would be expected to hold me and not fail. If you are choosing to build the handrail out of wood, you need to make sure that it is solid and strong and that it's going to protect life, um, of, of anyone who's going to be on your deck and might mistakenly or accidentally trip and fall and potentially need that handrail to keep them from, you know, falling to their Yeah, to their, Speaker 3 00:45:45 I mean if your deck is demise 10, 12, 15 feet off the ground and you trip and fall and you go to grab the rail and it goes with you. Yeah. I mean that you could be talking about death there. Speaker 2 00:45:54 Yeah. But you can build the rail out of wood. You need to make sure that the posts are properly fastened to the framing of the deck. And you need to make sure that the rails are properly fastened to the posts. And then you need to make sure that the pickets are properly fastened to the rails. And if all of that is done properly, then you will have a strong rail and you can do it for less than $50 a foot. Speaker 3 00:46:20 Right. However, now we're back to that maintenance thing, right? You've put in $30 or $40 per linear foot of rail, but then what you have to stain it or paint it. So now you're talking about staining it every couple of years, or you're just talking about painting it every couple of years, Speaker 2 00:46:38 Stripping it every couple of years Speaker 3 00:46:40 To make it look, keep good, you looking, keep it looking good. Yeah. So again, it's just something to consider. There's, there's lots of different types of handrail, you know, wood posts, aluminum iron. There's a product called fortress that we sell that's fantastic that come with these posts that you bolt down to the deck and then it comes with these panels and these, these brackets that you bolt to the posts and it's just the easiest thing and it's done. And it's actually not terribly expensive. Any di iyer can do it. Same thing goes for Trex railing. They make or TimberTech railing, they make these kits. You come in with your measurements and you buy the kits and then you install it. Speaker 2 00:47:21 Yeah. Think of it as as like rot, iron rot, iron is, um, the picture in your mind when you think of rot, iron railing is what you are getting with, with that kind of preassembled, um, powder Speaker 3 00:47:34 Coated Speaker 2 00:47:35 Rail panel that is made out of iron or, or aluminum. They make it out of aluminum as well. It's a little more expensive. And, um, and then the, the posts are also that, you know, two, two by two or three by three posts, brackets come on the posts very easy to install and Speaker 3 00:47:52 They're strong Speaker 2 00:47:53 And they're very strong. This brings a new point of something that you need to consider. These posts are bolted down to your deck and you can't bolt it just to the decking, especially if it's composite decking. You need to have something more substantial in the frame of the deck that is premeditated, right. That you've already thought about and built into the framing of your deck so that you can fasten those posts, the bottom plates of those posts to that beefy, um, member. Speaker 3 00:48:27 Absolutely. And it's something you consider before you put the deck surface down. 'cause once you put the deck surface down, it's a lot harder to put blocking up into your framing right. Where those posts need to go right now, that's, uh, surface mount posts. They also make face mount posts, which would mount on the exterior outside onto the fascia through your fascia. So if you're doing that, that's actually a pretty slick way to install railing. Gives you a little more square footage on the deck. It is a bit more expensive because you have to get longer posts and there's sometimes some extra bracketry required to install that on the fascia. So just keep that in mind. And you can't overhang your deck surface much at all because you need to have it flat and flush to the fascia. So something to consider. I actually really like the look of fascia mount. I think it looks really cool. And again, it gives you that, uh, extra square foot of, of, uh, deck surface Speaker 2 00:49:29 If you are mounting it to your fascia proper. And your fascia is what's holding the hardware and the rail. That fascia needs to be a couple of things. One, it needs to be substantial, not one by anything. Correct. It needs to be two by or Speaker 3 00:49:46 Double or Speaker 2 00:49:47 Double two by. And the fasteners need to penetrate all of that structure and it needs to be, and that, that fascia needs to be properly fastened to the structure of your deck. And we're talking about fastened masters, headlocks or ledger locks or Versa locks big, um, fasteners that are holding it properly to, um, to the structure of the deck so that it's so that your handrail will be stay attached when you need it the most. Oh yeah. Speaker 3 00:50:17 Big time. Uh, one of the things I wanted to talk about real quick was coastal considerations. We got that beach house, we put decking on it, we put put, we used actually, uh, stainless steel cable railing on that deck. And we had a lot of considerations because everything that we had to put up there is susceptible to salt air. And if you know anything about the coast, salt air destroys all Speaker 2 00:50:45 Cotton candy <laugh>. That's what I know about the coast. The Speaker 3 00:50:49 Coast, yeah. And saltwater taffy. Speaker 2 00:50:51 And saltwater taffy. That's Speaker 3 00:50:52 Fascination maybe. Yep. Um, anyway, yeah, stainless steel, everything. So that's just something to consider when you're talking about fasteners. Handrail, you definitely wouldn't want to use iron anything at the coast. So either a high quality aluminum with a nice powder coat or wood or stainless steel. Speaker 2 00:51:15 Yeah, that's, uh, absolutely hands down stainless steel is the way to go. Speaker 3 00:51:20 A hundred percent. All right, let's talk about lighting. Last thing. When you're building your deck, you've got the deck surface down, you've got the railing up and now you want it to look cool. Deck lighting is by far, in my opinion, one of the coolest additions to any deck. It offers just, it just looks stunning at night. Very cozy when you're hanging out on the deck, having dinner, having some lighting, and there are lots of different options. Speaker 2 00:51:48 I agree. It does look very, very cool. And this is something that, it doesn't surprise me that you appreciate this. You have lighting around your, your landscaping. You don't actually have a deck on your property, but you have lighting around your landscaping and you love, I'm gonna tell the, the, the, our listeners this. You love to be outside after dark and turn on your lights and see your landscape lighting. It is beautiful. Uh, it accents, uh, everything that's going on. Everything you've worked so hard for and on a deck, it does exactly the same thing. Having said that, it also provides an unbelievable amount of safety. If you are walking up and downstairs on your deck, seeing the stairs with proper lighting is, uh, paramount. Um, seeing the handrail is paramount. Uh, being able to see all of the contours of your deck is beautiful, but being able to see where you're walking is necessary. <laugh> Speaker 3 00:52:50 Yes. Safety aspect, Speaker 2 00:52:51 Safety aspect of it is makes it all worth it. 100%. If you Speaker 3 00:52:55 Choose to go with a product like Tracks or TimberTech, they make a multitude of different lighting in l e d, you can buy incandescent from other manufacturers, but I really like the L e D lights. They have 'em in a nice soft glow or you can get 'em in a bright white, just depends on what you're looking for. But you can get deck surface lights where you drill a hole and then they pop through and it like flushes out to the surface of the deck. Those are really cool. Very cool. They make riser lights that go on your stairs, like you said, they, they light your way. Railing lights that go underneath, underneath the top rail, they make 'em that go on the posts then shine down. They also have post cap lights. So all of that, especially if you choose a aluminum rail like Rex signature, aluminum railing, all the posts are hollow. All of the top caps, everything is hollow. So you can run wires through everything and you won't see a single wire runs back to your transformer. Transformer. And they even make timer transformers with remotes. So you can just have a little key fob that and Speaker 2 00:54:04 The transformer plugs into an outlet. Yeah. It's very Speaker 3 00:54:07 Simple. It is super simple and you don't have to splice any wires. Speaker 2 00:54:10 All plug and play. Speaker 3 00:54:10 All the wires come. You, you buy these splitters and then you just plug it in and then they thread down and lock tight. It's really cool. So if you want to add some extra bling to your deck, I would highly recommend getting some lighting. Speaker 2 00:54:25 Absolutely. It's, uh, it is, it is one of those things that will increase the resale value of your home. Absolutely. I guarantee it. And the Speaker 3 00:54:36 Usability of the deck and Speaker 2 00:54:37 That, and the safety aspect. There's a lot of pros, not very many cons. Speaker 3 00:54:44 Absolutely. Speaker 2 00:54:44 If I could think of any at all, I Speaker 3 00:54:45 Agree with you. Well, Speaker 2 00:54:46 This has been a really good show. Lots of information I feel like there that we've shared today. If, if anybody that's listening to this is interested in building a deck, there's going to be a nugget in there somewhere. And if there wasn't, I'm so sorry that you spent all that time listening and didn't get anything out of it <laugh>, but, um, you know, tune in next time. We'll, we'll talk about something different. I'm sure there'll be something for you there. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:55:08 Or if you got any, uh, suggestions or comments or questions, you can email us at weekend [email protected]. That's Weekend Warriors at par, p a r r.com. Make sure you go check out our YouTube channel. We're youtube.com/ww home show. Or if you just search Par Lumber in the search bar, you'll probably find us, Speaker 2 00:55:30 Tell us what you wanted to want us to talk about. You pick the topic, we will discuss it Speaker 3 00:55:35 A hundred percent. Speaker 2 00:55:35 Yeah. And, um, and we'll see how it goes. And if it's not a good topic, then we'll, we'll Frank call you at all Speaker 3 00:55:41 <laugh>. No Speaker 2 00:55:42 We won't. No we won't. I'm just Speaker 3 00:55:44 Kidding. Alright, well, uh, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time. Have Speaker 2 00:55:47 A great week.